The Daily Press.
HONGKONG, JUNE 26TH, 1889.
THE CHINESE RENDITION ORDINANCE.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the third reading of the Chinese Rendition Ordinance.
The Colonial Secretary seconded.
Hon. P. RYRIE--Your Excellency, I beg to say that my opposition to this Bill still remains, and from what I heard from the Chinese, only as late as yesterday, they are as strongly against it as ever, particularly with regard to this provision:
"Provided always that whenever the Governor shall, from the Magistrate's report or otherwise, have reason to suppose that any fugitive criminal, who has been committed to the Victoria Gaol to await the further order of the Governor, has been resident in the colony for one year or upwards, the depositions and evidence taken before the Magistrate on the investigation of the case shall, together with the Magistrate's report thereon, be considered by the Governor in Council, who shall be assisted in such consideration by the Chief Justice of the colony, and the Governor in Council shall decide whether such fugitive criminal shall be surrendered or not."
that there is a reason for making this change in the law, but candidly speaking, I cannot see the least believe that there is the slightest danger.
FOR.
Hon. C. P. Chater
The Surveyor-General
AGAINST
Hon. J. J. Kale
Hon. B. Lay
Hon. Wong
The Acting Registrar-General
The Acting Colonial Treasurer
Hon. P. RYRIE--If this law rendered it more easy on the whole to get people away, which was, I must say, the original intention of the Bill--there might be something to be said in favour of the hon. member's motion, but nobody can pretend that any such outrage has been attempted here for many years past.
Hon. P. RYRIE--One occurred within the last few days, I am informed.
His EXCELLENCY--Do you mean to tell me that such a person will not be in the position of making the Government alive to the real reason of his being demanded, and do you mean to say that the fact of the Government being so made alive will not cause the most stringent measures to be taken to prevent the man being given up if he is really innocent? Unless it was strictly guarded against, the provision you propose would make it impossible to get rid of the worst criminals. The restrictions, as it is, are sufficient to render me doubtful whether in some respects there won't be much more difficulty in getting rid of those I had hoped to do--I cannot exactly explain myself--but I may say that I fear already that the loopholes made for the innocent may be availed of by the guilty, and I am not sure that it would be exceedingly difficult to make them larger in the way the hon. member suggests, without also making them much larger for those whom we desire to get rid of.
His EXCELLENCY--The Chinese don't consider that sufficient, more especially those Chinese gentlemen and merchants who come here occasionally from the Straits Settlements and protected States. They perhaps become residents only for two or three months, perhaps only one; they come here generally with funds, and have assisted in raising the value of property very much by investing their funds here. That class of visitor is one that attracts the particular attention of the runners of the Chinese mandarins, who consider them worth looking after, and if they can't bring a crime against them, will manufacture one.
Since this Council last met, I had a conversation with a gentleman who understands the subject pretty well, and he said no Chinese should be extradited who had been longer than two or three months in the Colony. Even that would not be sufficient for the class of people I have referred to. He says if a Chinaman has been here for a year or two and has advanced in prosperity and has acquired goods or property, he may be wanted afterwards, but if he has not been prosperous and is really an offender of a rather serious character, they will leave him alone. If any amendment could be made in the clause which I have read, so that Chinese visitors to the colony who may or may not have been guilty of an offence in past times, but who when they come here have a good position, should be protected, it would be a good thing.
Hon. P. RYRIE--My informant is one of the most intelligent Chinese in the Colony. He is well known to many of those here.
His EXCELLENCY--All the intelligence in the world won't upset my belief in British Governors and British Governments, to the extent that a person of the class you motion is likely to be extradited as a criminal.
His EXCELLENCY--Do you move that the third reading be opposed?
Hon. P. RYRIE--If you will allow me, I would propose that this Bill be re-committed. That would give us time to think over the matter. I have not yet considered it myself. It was only yesterday that I was visited by this Chinese gentleman, and I have therefore had no time to consider any amendment. I propose, therefore, that this Bill be re-committed with a view to introducing some such clause as a protection to the parties I have mentioned.
There being no seconder to this motion, the COLONIAL SECRETARY, at the request of His EXCELLENCY, formally seconded.
His EXCELLENCY--The objection of the hon. member is one which I do not think will bear investigation. It is perfectly monstrous to suppose that a Chinese merchant coming here from the Straits or elsewhere could, under this Ordinance, be extradited under such circumstances. While certain provisions have been put in for the satisfaction of hon. members, I do not believe that without these, there would be any such opportunity for so gross a miscarriage of justice as sending away people because they have committed some offence in years long past or because it is desired to obtain their property or that of their relations.
Hon. P. RYRIE--But it gives opportunities for threats. You must know that there are emissaries of the mandarins in Canton by hundreds in this Colony.
His EXCELLENCY--If you are going to guard against threats, I do not know of any human institution which will do that. We cannot pass any law which will prevent that. If it is perfectly well understood--I take this opportunity of saying this, as the Hon. Wong Shing and the Registrar-General are present--that the utmost attention will be given to any case where a man is leading a respectable life, and that they must resist to the utmost any attempt to blackmail them, I think they will see that they are in perfect safety here.
His EXCELLENCY--If the hon. gentleman had thoroughly thought out the matter and had put his amendment into words, we should have something to discuss. At the present moment, it is in a somewhat vague form because he does not suggest any form of words which could possibly include such persons as he mentions in the Ordinance without including the blackguards we all desire to get rid of.
Hon. P. RYRIE--I have had no time to do so. It was only yesterday afternoon that I got my information.
His EXCELLENCY--I think, under the whole circumstances, I feel so absolutely safe with regard to these people and can give such an absolute assurance of safety until this Ordinance comes into operation, that I may say, at all events, there is not the least danger in allowing it to pass. I shall give the fullest consideration to what the hon. member may suggest on a future occasion, and if anything can be devised with his assistance, by which these people can be covered and the villains excluded, no one will be more willing to entertain it than myself.
His EXCELLENCY then put the question that the third reading do pass, and declared it passed.
Hon. B. LAYTON asked whether there was not going to be a division taken on the third reading. He wished to record his vote against it.
His EXCELLENCY said there could be no division really, as there was no motion of opposition to the third reading, but if hon. members desired it, a division could be taken.
A division was then taken with the following result:
No: 292
Enclosure
Colonial Secretary to H.B.M. Cowell,
Canton.
Sir,
Colonial Secretary's Office, Hong Kong, 22 February 1897.
I am directed to inform you that your Memorandum of December last on the subject of the extradition of Chinese criminals from this Colony has received the careful consideration of this Government.
His Excellency the Governor is advised that under the existing law, a request by telegram is sufficient to warrant the Governor ordering the Magistrate to issue a warrant for the arrest of a Chinese fugitive criminal; such telegram should, however, furnish sufficient...
The Daily Press.
HONGKONG, JUNE 26TH, 1889.
THE CHINESE RENDITION ORDINANCE.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL woved the third reading of the Chinese Reudition Ordinance.
The Colomial Secretary seconded.
Hon. P. RYBIE--Your Excellency I beg to say that my opposition to this Bill stil remains and from what I heard from the Chinese, only as late as yesterday, they are as strongly against it as ever, particularly with regard to this pro-
vision
Irovided always that whenever the Governor shall from the Magistrate's report or otherwise have reason to suppose that any fugitive criminal, who has best committed to the Victoria Gaol to await the further has been rostlent in the colony order of the Governor, li for one year or upwards, the depositions and evidence taken before the Magistrate on the investigation of the case shall together with the Magistrato's report theroon be couxiflered by the Governor in Connoil, who shall be assisted in such consideration by the Chief Justice of the colony, and the Governor in Council shall decide whether such fugitive crimioal
shall be surrendered or not.
that there is a reason for making this cha ga in the law, but candidly speaking 1 cannot ie the least believe that there is the slightest danger
FOR.
Hon. C. P. Chater
The Surveyor-General
AGAIN Hon. J. J. Ka
Hon. B. Lay
Hos. Wong
of what he mentions. If this law rendered it The Acting Registrar-Geseral
The Asling Colouinl Treasurer Hon. P. more easy on the whole to get people awayThe Acting Attorney-General which was, I must say, the original iateution The Colonial Secretary
of the Bill-there might be something to be! The third reading was therefore s said in favour of the hon. member's motion, but nobody can pretend that any such outrage has majority of two born attempted here for many years past.
Hou. P. RYRIE-One occurred within the last few days, I am informed.
a19
His EXCELLENCY-Do you wean to tell me that such a person will not be in the position of making the Government alive to the real reason of bis being demanded, and do you mean to say that the fact of the Government being so made alive will not cause the most stront measures to be taken to prevent the man bring given up if he is really innocent? Unles, it was strictly guarded against the provision you propose would make it impossible to get rid of the worst criminals. The restrictious, as it is, sufficient to render me doubtful whether in some respects there won't be much more difficulty in getting rid of those I had hoped to do -I cannot exactly explain wyself-but I may say that I fear already that the loopholes made for the innocent may be availed of by the guilty, and Law port oly sure that it would be exceedingly difficult to The Chinese don't consider that sufficient, more make them larger in the way the hen, member especially those Chinese gentlemen and mer-
sugg. ste, wiihont also making them much chants who come here occasionally from the larger for those whom we desire to get rid of, Straits Settlements and protected States. They but if the hou, member himself or any others perhaps become residents only for two or three can convince me of the necessity of making this months, perhaps only one; they come here gen-chango, I shall have full time for considering erally with funds, and have assisted in raising the matter, before we meet again. The Ordin- the value of property very much by investinganes does not come into operation at once. their funds here. That class of visitor is one must go home for approval, and I do not see! flat attracts the particular attention of the run- ners of the Chinese andarins, who consider any necessity, as we shall thus have further time for consideration, for going back on what we them worth looking after, and if they can't bring have done by amending the Bill or by throwing a crime against them will manufacture one
it out altogether, because I can guarantee Since this Council last met I had a conversation that before it does come into operation, we with a gentleman who understands the subject shall have full time to consider and to decide pretty well, and he said no Chinese should be
there whether
is absolutely ally Teal rendited who had been longer than two or secessity for the amendment. three months in the Colony. Even that would not be sufficient for the class of people I have referred to. He says if a Chinamau has been here for a year or two and has advanced in prosperity and has acquired goods or property
It
Hon. P. RYRIR-My informant is one of the most intelligent Chinese in the Colony. He is well known to many of those here.
HIS EXCELLENCY-All the intellegence in the world won't upset my belief in British Governors
he may be wanted afterwards, but if he has not and British Governments, to the extent that been prosperous and is really an offender of a rather serious character they will leave him a person of the class you motion is like- alone. If any amendment could be made in the ly to be extradited as a criminal.
clause which I have read, so that Chinese visi- fors to the colony who may or may not have been guilty of so offence in past times but who when they come here have a good position should be protected it would be a good thing. I think if this Bill is passed some clause protee ting that class of person should be imported
iuto it.
is EXCELLENCY-Do you move that the third rending be opposed ?
Hon. P. KYRIE-If you will allow me I would propose that this Bill be re-committed. That would give us time to think over the matter, I bave not yet considered it myself. It was only yesterday that I was visited by this Chinoge gentleman and I have therefore had no time to consider any amendment. I propose therefore that this Bill be re-committed with a view to introducing some such clanss as a protection to the parties I have mentioned.
There being no seconder to this motion, the COLONIAL SECRETARY, at the request of Ilis EXCELLENCY, forinally seconded.
His EXCELLENCY-The objection of the hon. member is one which I do not think will bear investigation, It is perfectly monstrous to suppose that a Chinese merchant coming here from the Straits or elsewhere could, under this Ordinance, be extradited nador such circum stances. While certain provisions have been put in for the satisfaction of hon. members, I do
Hon P. BRYIE-But, it gives opportunities for threats. You must know that there aro missaries of the mandarius in Canton by hun- dreds in this Colony.
His EXCELL NOY-If you are going to guard against threats I do not know of any human institution which will do that. We cannot pass any law which will prevent that, If it is per- factly well understood-I take this opportunity of saying this as the Hon. Wong Shing and the Registrar General are present that the utmost attention will given to any case whore a man is leading a respectable life and that they must resist to the utmost any attempt to blackmail them, I think they will see that they are in per- feet safety here. You see I am placed in a dif- ficult position.
If the hon. gentleman had thoroughly thought out the matter and had put his amendment into words, we should have some. thing to discuss. At the present moment it is in a somewhat vague form because he does no suggest any form of words which could possibly include such persous as he mentions in the Odi- pace without including the blackguards wo all desire to get rid ot.
Hon. P. RERIE-I have had no time to do so. It was only yesterday afternoon that I got my information.
His EXCELLENCY- think under the whole circumstances I feel so absolutely safe with re-. gard to these people and can rive such an abso- lute assurance of safety until this Ordinance
not believe that without these there would comies into oporation that I may say at. be any such opportunity for so gross all events there is not the least danger in miscarriage of justice as sending away people allowing it to pass. I shall give the fullest because they have committed some offence inconsideration to what the hon. member may sug years long past or because it is desired to obtain gast on a future occasion and if anything can their property or that of their relations. I do he devised with his assistance by which these! not for one moment think that such a thing could
people can be covered and the villains excluded, happen. I think the safeguards against that no one will be more willing to entertain it than in the Bill are thoroughly sufficient. To do
myself. what the hon. member asks means a continuance HIS EXCELLENCY then put the question of the Session, which by general desire. I he that the third reading do pass, and declared it; lieve, is coming to an end, for a purpose which I
passed.
do not think is necessary. If it should be shown Hon. B. LAYTON asked whether there was not to me that such a provision is necessary-1 should be pleased if the hon. member would come and going to be a division taken on the third read.
He wished to record nis voto against it.
jug.
talk the matter over with me--I am perfectly His EXCELLENCY said thore could be no divi. willing by next session to bring in an amend-ion really as there was no motion of opposition ment in the direction he points out, if he can to the third reading, but if hou. members so convince me, as it is quite possible he may do-- | desired it a division could be taken.
t
we could probably do more in conversation in A division was then taken with the following dealing with the soutiments of people who do not
result
care for their ideas be spoken about publicly-
No 292.
524
Enclosure
Colonial Secretary to H.B. Mi. Cowell,
Canton.
Sir.
you
that
Colonial Secretary's Office, Hong Kong 22 February 1897.
I am directed to inform
your
Memorandume of Decan-
ber last on the a
of the extradition
subject of
of Chuiere criminals from this Colony
has received the careful consideration of this Government.
Stis Excellency the Governor.
is advised that under the existing law
a request by telegram is sufficient to warrant the Governor
Governor in order
ordering the for
Magistrate to issue a warrant,
the
arrest of a chniese fugitive crminal; such telegram
should however furnish
sufficient
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